Part 1 was getting rather long so I started a part 2.
Here is a post from an anti-H1B visa group:
Urgent Position || Tibco Developer || Minneapolis MN || TCS |\ RAte $ 50 C2C
If this what technology and science can pay , everyone should learn other skills like mechanics, plumbing , electricians etc.When you hire them you pay them lot more.
And here are some replies to said post:
That’s what I made at Apple 21 years ago. Inflation has gone up 41% since then. So it should be around $70+ today.
Utah and other states with building booms need lots of plumbers, electricians, which pay $65/min and are unionized. If I had it to do over I’d join IBEW and make $110,000 min guaranteed with job protections, free training, and free placement. Union jobs are protected from this outsourcing crap by lobbying in DC.
true, but I work for the va and I am a member of the afge – so far it hasn’t helped one single bit, AND the government is talking about privatizing the va – this war will require all of us
They have a massive office in Tempe, AZ near me. 100% Indians. Right next to a huge ADP payroll bldg. also staffed with 99% Indians. What has this country come to.
33°25’49.14″ N 111°56’24.50″ W
I have been a little preoccupied with this thought. We only have created about 4k tech jobs for all of 2018 and are about to import ~100k more H1-Bs.
If any Americans were hired for these jobs, it is a certainty they will soon be replaced with this new batch of visa workers. We are losing tech jobs at an alarming rate. What happens to all the H1-Bs holding all the tech jobs today?
There has to be a steady outflow of the H1-Bs that no one talks about. No? How do explain this? Please refer to Bloomberg article based on BLS I posted a few days ago for the source of my data.
I live in the greater Seattle area, which has a thriving, high-tech economy. One of the things that I notice is that people working at high-technology companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and others in living and working in Seattle and upscale Eastside suburbs like Bellevue, Redmond, Kirkland, and Issaquah tend to be disproportionately Asian, especially Indian or Chinese, or from other countries outside the USA.
Despite having earned several STEM education credentials, I have been unable to succeed at a technological or engineering job, while many other people from outside the USA have been able to achieve great success. That is why, for example, the upscale Eastside suburb of Sammamish, where many tech employees live and has an average household income of over $100,000, is 20% Asian, considerably higher than the percentage of population of people of Asian descent nationwide.
Therefore, why do people from ethnic groups such as Indian and Chinese do so well, and yet I have not been to achieve the level of success of most of these people despite having the advantages of growing up in a middle-class family in the USA and earning higher-level education credentials in supposedly marketable majors from top-tier American universities?
My friend is from India and he worked in IT company based around Austin. He came from India on H-1B visa. After living and working here for many years, he married an American girl and became a US citizen. He was fired from his job. His American Boss told him that now you have become expensive for us. He had to train his replacement, a new H-1B visa from India. After months of trying to get new job, he moved on in Indian Restaurant Business.
Bottomline is that American Businesses are looking at cheap labour on H-1B visas. Visa holders are paid less, stay in same position for years due to indefinite wait of Green Card, cannot change company. Bonded labour on cheap thats it.
We have 11 million STEM graduates in the USA working outside of STEM because they can’t find jobs in that field. That’s 75% of STEM graduates.
We are graduating more than enough people in STEM. Employers have been whining for years about the STEM shortage and Americans have have answered the call. Americans have studied STEM in droves. Their reward? No jobs.
I work in the Bay Area as a ML Engineer and rarely meet IIT grads. All I see are grads from tier-2 or tier-3 schools in India. Is that what America wants to attract? Very few of the H1B’s that I have worked with were “exceptional”. In fact, most were average or below average.
America needs to put Americans first. It’s fine to say that a country should benefit it’s own people first. Xenophobia is not necessarily a bad thing.
PS. I’m Indian-American. Born here in the US.
Age old question, yet you still don’t seem to have the answer:
All numbers are fake, not representing real life, but ratios are pretty accurate
Indian Engineer, working in India, as java programmer makes $1000/month
American engineer, working in the US, as java programmers makes $8000/month
Some scumbag company tells, American engineer’s employer that, they can do the same job with one of their engineers for $6000/month.
American employer likes 25% cost savings, lays off the American Engineer.
Scumbag company contacts Indian engineer and tells them they have a job for him paying $4000/month. And they dangle the Green Card carrot in front of the Indian engineer.
Indian engineer quadruples the money he/she is making (not knowing what kind of a life he is getting himself into, jumps into the offer. If nothing else, there is green card at the end of this ordeal for him. Little he knows, there is no green card for 15+ years, if any at all.
American engineer goes jobless, while the scumbag company is making $2000/mo for absolutely nothing but signing some papers.
Here, the question most H-1B employees ask: “Then, why not the American Engineer agree to reduced pay of $6000/month” in this example. If the American engineer has $3000/month mortgage payment, $1000/month car payment for himself and his wife, if he has two school age kids going to private schools, and he adjusted his life according to his current employment, making a 25% cut in his salary will most probably make him go bankrupt in few months. Hence he takes the severance pay and hopes that before that money is depleted, he will find himself another job with same or comparable financial compensation. Sometimes it works, most times it won’t.
And here are some replies to said post:
First – H1B workers ARE full-time employees. Even a contractor at client location, is a full-time employee for the H1B sponsoring employer.
How the “take away an American’s job” works is –
- A third party consulting firm petitions my H1B and hires me – let us say, at 70K salary.
- They place me at a client location where I get on-boarded on their business domain.
- Once the client is happy with me, the client will offer me a full-time employment paying a salary of say, 100K, which I gladly accept because I am getting almost 35% hike.
- Client, in many cases, pays a one-time “fee” to the consulting firm to “release” me so I can work for the client. Consulting firm is happy.
- Client fires an American employee who was paid say 140K, saving 40K every year while paying only a little amount for my H1B filing.
So, am I, a H1B worker, taking away an American’s job? apparently yes. But was I aware of it and doing it consciously and intentionally? – probably no.
So who is to blame here? Should the client be blamed to cut his costs? Should the consulting firm be blamed for providing a service the client demands? Should I be blamed for replacing an American that I probably don’t know of, or not aware of what’s happening behind the scenes?
I don’t know. All I know is what the client is doing is not illegal, but probably unethical and/or immoral. But it’s a business, and their only goal is to make money.
Most of the H1 B visas are offered for full time job however a job loss is a loss for economy whether its a full time or part time.
Coming over to the question of taking away american jobs, anyone with considerable experience on H1B visa knows how this entire game is played by some consultancies.
I wont go in the morality of this murky consultancies system however its one of biggest reason for backlash on H1 B visa/ visa holder.
Had people/ consultancies used this H1 B visa genuinely and not to just fulfill their own greed, things would have been really different.
Here is another post from one of the anti-H1B visa groups:
Do they actually hire American database engineers?
Thank you for your interest in furthering your employment with Teradata. We appreciate your interest in the Database Product Support Engineer position. We enjoyed learning more about your background and experience.
Although your credentials are impressive, we have decided to pursue other candidates for this position. We wish you the best of luck in your job search and encourage you to continue to visit our website for additional opportunities.
Global Talent Acquisition Team
And here are some replies to said post:
Didn’t you write a book on databases? If so, why wouldnt any company be thrilled to have you?
I have written many books on databases and have no fucking idea what the hell is going on.
You are American and too expensive. Change that first name to Benamalaramalama and you have a good shot.
I wrote software at Apple and Sony including helping to create Playstation but I’m still not good enough.
Teradata is an almost all-Hadoop shop and anywhere there is Hadoop there are load and loads of Indians. In fact, TD has been acquiring loads of other Hadoop companies. So, almost zero chance.
Here is a post from an anti-H1B visa group:
Well I guess that CTO was not interested where I interviewed via phone after the company approached me on LinkedIn. Why do companies waste candidates time getting false hopes up? The recruiter disappeared and I asked him what the status was after they mentioned bringing me onsite for a formal in person interview. Here is the lame reply:
“Sorry for the delay. I have found out that there is a re-set on this position and the focus on skills are going to be changing. We are in a holding pattern at this time.”
When asking about the H1B State Farm layoffs, I got the following reply on city-data:
State Farm has a massive presence in north Texas (they just built a campus in Richardson a few years ago).
I don’t work for State Farm, never have…but I know a couple of people who do. They say it has become an H1B body shop for pretty much anything IT-related, from QA to development to project managers to business analysts to systems administrators to database administrators. If you’re not from south India, don’t even bother applying (that’s what I hear).
According to what I’ve been able to find, State Farm itself doesn’t actually sponsor many H1B visas but they use a lot of third-party vendors to fill their IT positions. Basically nobody who works in anything technology-related actually works for State Farm itself. I don’t know what vendors they’re using…probably some from the “big” shops like Infosys, TCS, Wipro, HCL, Cognizant, supplemented by warm bodies from some smaller local 100% H1B shops. There are dozens in DFW.
Here is another post from an anti-H1B visa group:
I have been contacted three times in the past two days by Infosys. One if not all of the contacts are based on my responding to an ad that one of their recruiters put on one of the several forums that have a anti-H-1B focus. When I responded to the ad, I did NOT know that the ad was for Infosys.
The first contact was by email for a job in either NJ or Phoenix. They required an in-person interview, but they would not pay travel expenses for the in-person interview. Of course I realized at that point, the employer was an H-1B body shop. So I just dropped it.
The second contact was a couple hours later, and the recruiter was clearly a US citizen. She told me that the employer would pay travel expenses but the employer is Infosys for a project in Phoenix, working for American Express, or NJ, where I do not know the client (It could be American Express, maybe.). I did not pursue that any further after hearing the employer is Infosys. I just can’t get it through my mind why I as a US citizen, I have to use a company from India, Infosys as a gatekeeper to an employer in the US and Infosys would get >$25/hour off of my rate. How did that H-1B body shop parasite insert themselves into the picture of facilitating jobs between US citizens and US employers and taking a $25/hour tribute off of my rate?!?!
The third contact came today. The recruiter told me that Infosys is changing their ways, ending their abuses, embarking on a future where they will only be hiring US workers and GC holders, and entering a phase where they are going to become a solid, legit US employer. The recruiter asked my rate, and I gave them my 1099 rate. They do not do 1099. So that is one strike against them. Then the recruiter gave me a rate for a job 3000 miles away for a rate 25% lower than my last W2 rate in which I was working directly for a local employer and not a W2 rate from an H-1B body shop. The rate was lower than my local rate 20 years ago. We spoke a little more about the processes at Infosys, AND IT IS ALL THE SAME OLD INFOSYS H-1B BODY SHOP!
Once again, Infosys is making the claim that they are changing their ways while NOT changing their ways. It is still the same old H-1B body shop shell game.
And here are some replies to said post:
I’ve received recruiting calls from US citizens fronting for Apu. That isn’t unusual.
These days, all of the “urgent requirements” from Apu involve TCS or Infosys & are a waste of your time.
If you are a student of the job market you’re looking into, you may find US staffing firms trying to directly place at the same company. Infosys may be throwing bodies at the company, hoping something will result in a placement.
Your best bet is to abandon Apu entirely.
Many of those *** URGENT *** jobs turn out to be $25/hour assignments that are 2000 miles away. My landscaper makes more money than that.
It’s to the point where I only work with the one firm I’ve been attached to for years, that’s it. The guys who own it are all retired IBM.
These Jokers end up sending me 3 week stints in Minot, ND during the middle of winter, for $15 per hour, Corp to Corp.
as bad as infosys is just imagine how bad are the 5000+ “small business” body shops registered in US as LLC. The LLC companies are registered by mostly h-1b some of them operating these LLC’s from india and applying h-1b’s. This is how stupid the US federal and state governments are. In there mad rush for ease of doing business they have left so many loophole because they dont want regulations. these body shops are using these loop holes to bring h-1b and paying them 20 to 50$ per hour and pocketing anywhere from 20$ to 100$ per hour just by being middlemen.
exactly. Our govt is so eager to please corporations they have made it easy to set up and run companies. Our govt is backing intl student loans the same as it does for americans…. to increase profits for universities who in turn provide OPT’s. It is one big circle of hades.
Contracting at defense contractors until a few years ago required USA citizenship. HCL America changed that by syphoning work from defense contractors that is unclassified and low technology based mostly reviewing specifications and testing documents. Defense contractors would rely on USA based job shops to call in former employees to do the spec and test document reviews and pay them $45 to $60 per hour. HCL America now controls that work and does ALL the hiring and they only hire Indians and do the work offsite of the defence company location. Pay rate for the unqualified Indians that have no knowledge of what they are reviewing is $19 to $25 per hour. When these document reviews are deemed not acceptable by the Department of Defense HCL America tries to hire a few qualified and experienced USA citizens for $35 per hour and there are no takers
Here is a post from a Breitbart article:
I am a retired medical technologist. I have seen my field being taken over by H1b visa contract workers from India, Pakistan, China, and some Arab countries for about 15 years. The new US graduates (BSC, one year internship, and required board certification, with state licensure required in many States) are making much less than they were 10 years ago, when they can get a job at all. Even the small hospital labs are getting in on the cheap foreign labor wagon. Yoder can kiss my arse.
And another post from said article:
My trainees were L-1b foreign replacement workers. I had 3 trainees, each learned a different facet of my job. I saw one of them reading an “Intro to” manual. Not quite “specialized knowledge” as L-1bs are supposed to possess.
We learned our replacements were making $3K/month, but $2000 of that was paid as non-taxable expenses. So their high-tech STEM jobs in Lake Mary,FL paid an annual taxable salary of $12,000/year. I don’t know any Americans that can survive on that; especially when medical insurance at $943/month.
Here is a post from an anti-H1B visa group:
Let’s Visit Twitter again and check out the #NoHR392 Scene. The Yoder Greed Green Card Giveaway will Provide 75 % of GC’s to the Indians – Game Over for IT and Health Workers just for Starters, Accountants Count Your Beans.
#HR392 gives all the GC opportunities to a single nation that has more population (India). Equality does not mean fairness. The current system provides diversity. Consider a situation when 90 percent of your coworkers are from a single nation! (No diversity)
Mahnaz Behroozi @Mahnaz_Behroozi
What makes the United States a great nation is its diversity. #HR392 will restrict entering talented people from different countries to the U.S. workforce. USA is about to lose its diversity. Let’s keep it a great nation as it was! #NOHR392
H1B Reform Now @H1B_Reform_Now
Replying to @IngrahamAngle @TiensToi and 2 others
Yoder’s plan does not bring diversity. It blocks out latinos and all others and just allows oversupply of work visa people to get GC first. Oversupply of work visa people should be sent back. Country caps for GC is needed to ensure diversity. #NOHR392
I explained #HR392 to my American friends and they are stunned! Employment based GC is not about moving a whole other country to the U.S. It’s about giving highly skilled ppl, all around the world, the opportunity of migration and bringing their talent to the U.S. #NoHR392
Soodi Milanlouei – @SoodiMilanlouei
We need a merit-based multifactorial system rather than a first come first served process.
#Hr392 supporters are afraid of spreading the news. Why? Because when more people know about it, the stupidity of this amendment will be more obvious.
Spread the news. Even if you are not affected by this law. #NoHR392
Lord Curzon @lord_curzon
US has talent from all over: Korea, Japan, Brazil, Mexico, Iran, Canada, Britain, Sweden, Australia, France, Germany, Israel, Turkey, Greece, Italy, Switzerland, Holland, China, and yes, even india. To give *all* green cards to india would violate US national interest. #NoHR392
US workers are not responsible for training their replacements. Our universities can produce the best graduates at every level from the US and all over the world. Don’t distribute more than 70% of the GCs to one nation with mostly foreign bachelor or less. #NoHR392 #RemoveHR392
Zhehao Li @ugofrice
#nohr392 The best solution is to set national quota proportional to country’s population. e.g. India has 17% of world’s population so Indian may get 17% of GCs. This solution will make sure every individual get same chance regardless of national origin and maintaining diversity
Why our US PhD graduates from Europe or Africa should wait years in line for Green Card and probably leave the country while 70% of Green Cards hand over to people with mostly foriegn bachelor from a specific country?
Lower wages doesn’t justify this policy #RemoveHR392 #NoHR392
IT skills and talents cannot only be found in one nation!Break this stereotype which says all Indians are effective engineers and others are plumbers.Job market is no longer merit-based,it is connection-based that’s why Silicon Valley is like New Delhi. Free ITcompanies #NoHR392
❗️America’s policy of diversity in immigration would be replaced by an India-first policy; India would get nearly 100 percent of employment-based green cards for a time, eventually stabilizing at around 75 percent;
#RemoveHR392 #removeHR392 #NoHR392
No win for nobody in HR392. Neither americans nor the rest of the world(including indian and chinese)
#NoHR392 #RemoveHR392 #removeHR392
sahar hm @HM2Sahar
The #HR392 is a disaster for the American workers. Fraudulent companies who abuse #H1B now want to import/abuse more cheap labor by removing the CG cap.
Please remove #HR392 from House DHS appropriations bill. #NOHR392
HR392 is shameful and yet many Americans don’t know about it because Indians are getting the approval in silence. Let the others know about it! This is the least we can do. Indians don’t interview others in companies like Facebook, Intel, Amazon, IBM, … #RemoveHR392 #NoHR392
HR392 WAS WRITTEN BY IMMIGRATION VOICE FOR IMMIGRATION VOICE AND FOR THE INDIANS.
Here is a post from an anti-H1B visa group:
When the U.S. Department of Labor needed a new contractor to upgrade its aging computer systems, it turned to labor broker Saras America. The firm should have sounded familiar.
While labor broker Triune Technologies Inc. was blacklisted by the Department of Labor for two years, its executives received approval to import H-1B workers under the name of a different company, WalkWater Technologies Inc., which shares the same San Jose, California, address.
Here is a post from a Breitbart article :
I do not live in the Dallas area, but I know people that do, and they cannot get IT and Health jobs due to the overwhelming presence and influence of Indian companies that are based upon the H-1B visa.
It turns out that Pete Sessions, the Chairman of the Rules committee is a co-sponsor of the Immigration Voice Indian Lobbyist sponsored Bill H.R. 392: Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2017, he is a member of the House Indian Caucus and he is also a member of the notorious Republican Hindu Coalition. He is the only member in the House that is a member of all three groups.
H.R. 392: Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2017 will do great harm to the American IT and Health worker sectors for it provides Green Cards to the Indians on a first come first serve basis instead of the current 7% per county cap under current law. It is estimated that due to their numbers, the Indians would receive up to 75% of green cards issued per year if H.R. 392 is allowed by the Rules Committee as a rider to FY 2019 Homeland Security Appropriations Bill of which Mr. Sessions is the chairman and beholden to these various Indian interest groups.
The question I pose is who does Rep Pete Session represent in congress? Does he represent the workers of Texas or the workers of India? Based on the information complied by U.S. Tech Workers, the answer is simple to surmise.
And another post from said article:
This is flipping ridiculous. This problem with the Indians has been going on my whole career in STEM, for the past 25 years. It’s gotten so bad that I advised my own children to steer clear of STEM for careers. The deck is stacked against American STEM workers — IN AMERICA.
And another post:
Great article Munro which shows proof positive how the abusive work visas have decimated good paying American jobs and an entire business sector of our economy. I watched this happen first hand and had to close the doors to my business 8 years ago due to this bs and retire. I watched Microsoft weakened all of it’s certifications abroad and to strengthen the requirements here at home to justify why they couldn’t get more skilled workers which was a sham in itself. They are now trying to do this with accounting and engineering sectors. Yoder can yodel on my balls along with the rest of those cucksuckers that propose more work visas.
Here are some posts from a City-Data thread:
I recently visited a client where 19 out of 20 IT employees were from India, and that included programmers, managers, directors and VPs, so of course they’ll sponsor visas for more of their countrymen. The only American I spoke to was the guy who configured the laptops to be handed out to new employees. While in his quarters I saw 15-20 laptops already prepared and they had post-it notes on them with Indian names on them. All the new hires were Indian.
This baffles me, it’s not only bad for the US economy but politically stupid on Trump’s part. Americans need those jobs to keep up with all the rising costs of living in US cities, how the hell are Americans supposed to afford college, basic health care, housing, even food when the best jobs, in skilled areas like tech, are being just given away like that? And how are college kids supposed to pay off student loans? No wonder the US birthrate keeps crashing down, no one can afford to have families. Plus, why would Americans even bother to study STEM now if fewer and fewer jobs are available, and at lower wages? STEM majors are hard work, so who’s going to go through that, and wrack up so much college debt if jobs not there?
I thought Trump was at least smart politically but maybe he really is dumb as a rock politically. This is the one campaign promise he really had to keep, and if he’s dumb enough to go back on it, his whole base will stay home in November this year and 2020. Protecting American jobs from stupidity like this is the only reason most people voted for him and it’s the only rallying cry of his base. Without protecting US jobs, Trump has nothing to offer, and what he’s doing here stinks of near treason for allowing this. What you’re describing sounds like against the law so Trump could easily stop it, maybe he has people in his administration who aren’t fully committed to the task but voters in November really aren’t going to care for that as excuse, esp. when Americans are already starting to hurt from the tariffs. I’d say because of this alone, we have a Blue Wave coming in 2018 and 2020, unless Trump wises up and basically imposes a big moratorium on the H-1B, like the travel ban. Much needed.
I talked to one of my tech-industry relatives about what you mentioned with this particular ocmpany earlier in the week, and he pointed out that the company you’re describing is plainly, flagrantly breaking the law. In fact so flagrantly that this is the sort of thing that would have gotten them shut down even during the Obama and Bush administrations, when the White house was more likely turn a blind eye to the H-1B rule violations like what Disney did in laying-off their tech workers. I see what you’re saying and I’m not sure what to believe about Trump’s actual stance towards the H-1B, but apparently according to my cousin, there is at least now an office where people can report flagrant violations of H-1B rules and shut down companies like this. And this apparently is happening, as the Justice dept,, or whichever government branch investigates this, has been heavily fining and shutting down many corporate violators of the law. I don’t know if Trump himself is pushing this, and from what you’re saying I have my doubts, but Sessions at least, IIRC is an open enemy of the H-1B, so he might be the one responsible for creating this complaints office. (I didn’t get the details, but you can apparently leave a citizen’s complaint, or an anonymous tip about the company doing this, and the Justice Dept. will investigate them). In this case, the company is so flagrantly going against law that the Justice dept. would have an easy time going in and shutting them down, maybe even putting some of the execs in prison for it to make an example, so you could probably have an impact by reporting the lawbreakers here.
Incidentally my relative is Asian-American himself (I basically have a Filipino-American branch of the extended family) and in my observation, Asian-Americans hate the H-1B more than about any other group. They’re more likely to go into STEM, including Indian-Americans and so have student loans, so they’re rightly very angry about the way the H-1B is hurting their careers and earning prospects. Ir really seems like everyone hates the H-1B except the corrupt and short sighted executives and their lawyers who are pushing this policy.
I also have in-laws who are Asian and some from African nations who work in IT and who are American citizens and they also don’t like these programs due to them hurting their careers. Black Americans also don’t like them for the same reason as there was a push for the past decade to get more black people in STEM and those that took the bait now cannot find a decent paying career due to the influx of these visa workers in the field.
I spent my entire career in IT, and it was sad to see it get taken over by the Indians, and I knew many people who supporter Trump ONLY because he promised to do something about it. You can imagine how they feel now that Trump is actually making it worse.
I worked for a couple of Taiwanese companies and a Korean company. L1 visas at those companies were fairly heavily abused. As soon as they got the L1 up to speed, they laid off the US citizen employee. The L1 is working for pennies on the dollar and is living in a shared corporate apartment.
Having been through the L1A process personally, being illegal would have been a whole lot easier.
L1 visas still have to go through a work certification and an affidavit, so abuse has consequences if people speak up. As far as the pay, the company is required to report to Immigration the salary, along with the US equivalent as part of the investigation.
I honestly have no issue with the administration limiting illegal immigration. However, IMO limiting these legal immigrants who are brought here specifically to be overworked and be paid less than American workers could have been paid, is more of an issue for me. I’d rather these positions be available to American workers. I honestly don’t see the need for many of the job categories to even be eligible for H1-B visas. Especially in IT IMO we have enough STEM professionals here who are American citizens to fill jobs.
Many of the companies use visas to lock in those employees to limit them from getting a better paying position. If more IT companies paid better wages and especially had better benefits for their American employees, they wouldn’t suffer with labor shortages.
I’ll note that IT used to be a category I managed for supply chain at a previous position and we often hired IT contractors to perform services for our clients. Many of those companies were owned by foreigners and often the clients would fire the American workers who they had on staff to hire these contractors. Those American companies that hired contracted workers, often underpaid their employees/staff versus what those workers would have been paid if they’d been hired directly by the organization (not a contractor). Contractors rarely made more than $15 an hour when I did this work.
My entire neighborhood is H-1B visa holders and they are still working as usual. They don’t make low wages though. They all make 6 figures. Maybe they’d pay an american 25% more but these guys are still making bank.
they prob make decent money- but not as much as a non H1B worker should make. It’s an artificial ceiling for wages for good white collar upper middle class jobs we should be fighting for- this is where we should be focusing efforts, not on tariffs to bring back steel jobs by the handful. This is an abuse to artificially suppress wages and take away the kind of jobs we should be fighting for in 21st century.
The advantage of an H1 is that the employee is basically an indentured servant. They can’t work for anyone else unless that company has a visa of their own to issue. The H1, and L1 for that matter only allow you to work for the sponsoring company, and if you quit/lose your job you have 30 days to get out.
Thanks for reminding me I’d forgotten about that part, yeah that sounds just like slavery or as you say, indentured servitude. This could maybe partly explain why some employers would hire an H-1B even if the salary savings aren’t that much compared to an American. Even if a company is paying the IT guy from Bangalore six figures, he’s still basically the company’s slave, so the company can feel relatively free to abuse him, work him those 110 hour weeks and just generally treat him terribly which they couldn’t do with an American, who could just quit and get a position at another company.
Which means maybe it’s important to look at not annual salary, but instead the salary per hour that the worker is working, and I’d guess that with H-1B’s couldn’t do that since they’d fear deportation. Which means another key piece of the reform, I would think besides demanding higher salaries than an American worker and surveying if Americans are available, is removing the visa from the hands of the employer, and giving it to the worker. This seems to be a source of a lot of the abuse. If the worker could at least complain about abuses or find another employer, or ask for higher wages, then a lot of these abuses– including in effect, the reduction in hourly wages due to the unpaid overtime the H-1B’s are forced into from their indenturement– would be reduced.
the companies post jobs at salaries WAY below market value- then cry- “See we can’t find anyone”- time to fire up the phone to TATA. it’s self dealing and a clear abuse meant to suppress good white collar upper middle class jobs to save a few dollars.
Yes this really nails the heart of the issue, it’s thinly veiled corruption by treasonous US corporations and corrupt politicians that does a lot of damage to the US job market and makes it harder esp for college grads and more experienced workers to pay off student loans and afford basic like housing and health care. The corrupt corps and politicans in turn are helped out by corrupt attorneys like the one in that video.
Brings up another point about how rotten and corrupt the H-1B has become and how Trump and Sessions can really bring about a key reform with a simple step, because one is made to ask, why are the Indian tech workers so willing to indenture themselves and basically work as slave labor? The answer is another flaw in the way the H-1B system is run now, which represents another abuse and breaking of the original law– the Indians do it because they’re dangled the carrot of a green card, which very few actually get and which the H-1B is not supposed to be connected to (it’s a temporary work visa that, as the law is written, is now allowed to lead to a green card).
So Trump and Sessions could probably shut down a lot of the abuse of the H-1B visa simply by enforcing the original intent of the law, that it is, making sure the H-1B is used only as a temporary visa and cannot be used to adjust status as green card, with no visa extensions either. The Indians subject themselves to such humiliating conditions and virtual slave wages for long hours, not because the money is better than in India (given costs of living in US cities, it really isn’t), it’s because they’re so desperate to get out of overpopulated, corrupt India that they’ll indenture themselves for the dangling carrot of a green card– they’re getting “paid” by being teased by the small chance of a green card for enduring utter humiliation for 3 years as an indentured H-1B, usually to a cheap labor body shop like Tata or Infosys.
Basically, just as US outsources a lot of its best tech jobs, India is outsourcing its societal failures and messes due to its overpopulation to the rest of the world, dumping its problems on workers overseas and making countries like the USA, Canada and Australia pay for India’s own overpopulation crisis, corruption and mismanagement through lower wages and jobs for their own citizens. But only because our own leaders have been so corrupt and treasonous against Americans to allow India to use us as a safety valve. If Trump and Sessions make sure Indians can’t get green cards from the H-1B, he’ll actually be doing both Americans and Indians a favor. This will block the safety valve and encourage Indians to make reforms at home to reduce corruption, increase wages and implement better contraception and family-plan policies to help make India’s population more manageable. American workers have more jobs available at better wages, more on job training, while Indians are encouraged to reform their society, bring down corrupt officials and stabilize their population.
Think about it, the way-below-market salaries like you point out, would seem at first to defeat the purpose of coming to the US, after all most US tech jobs are in expensive big cities like in the Bay Area, so it seems like the Indians coming here and working 100-hour weeks, for slave wages and no health care coverage, for a company that they can’t leave would seem to be getting royally shafted. They can’t save up very much money with the high costs of living, and what meager amounts they do make are sent back to India as remittances (which also hurts the US economy, compared to an American worker who’ll spend their income here). So why do the Indian workers subject themselves to such indignities and humiliation as cheap labor?
Certainly the way so many H-1B’s crowd into filthy, squalid apartments helps them to save up some money, but still this doesn’t explain it. The whole reason Disney was willing to lay off it’s own loyal, skilled high-tech workers and replace them with Indians, was that the Indians were so dirt-cheap and willing to live under miserably squalid conditions, and still not save up much money. So not only do American workers lose out, imported Indian workers don’t gain much either, in fact with costs of living many of them wind up in debt themselves, esp if have medical bills. Their main incentive therefore isn’t the money itself, it’s the fantasy of a green card– which usually turns out to be a cruel tease, since the overpopulation in India means the Indians can just be used, discarded and replaced with another one equally desperate to escape India’s overpopulation and overcrowding.
So if Trump and Sessions enforce the original intent of H-1B, make it clear it’s only a temporary visa, no green card status adjust, and Indians must return home after the H-1B and can’t use it to apply for a green card, then this incentive– which is the driving force for the slave wages that Indians accept– disappears. This way, the H-1B’s slave wages can’t be “paid” by the potential for a green card, but only by real wages that exceed cost of living in a big city. So Indians would only accept an H-1B visa if the wages are at or above market, that is if there are genuine shortages, not cheap labor. This would force corrupt body shops like Tata and Infosys to clean up their act, and would remove the downward wage pressure due to that H-1B abuse.
Attorneys / Lawyers make lot of money at every stage. Just one example
It is like a gravy train for them. If they hire Americans, how will they mint money at every step of the process ??
Companies also jump around the projects thru various LLC to get a CUT at every stage.
There are Dummy projects to get Visa and then the visa holder moves from Client A to Client B, Location A to Location B.
Immigration is not about H-1B visa only. Why have Americans taken so many Indian Doctors / Nurses ? Why so many Motel franchise or 7-eleven stores were given to people from India? Why so many American Universities are organising Educational Fairs and giving on-the-spot admission in Graduate School for MS / MBA in various Indian cities ?
It must be financially lucrative.
In the same way, the current low wage H-1B visa IT model has generated into present form.
Mutually beneficial for both sides (Corporates from American side and public from India).
Ask 7-eleven that why so few White Americans are willing to buy their franchise !!! that will give the answer for this IT H-1B conundrum too.
Instead of putting the blame only on Indians, American public needs to answer some questions to their corporates and politicians first.
Who is abusing? Corporates or visa holders ?
The aim of this Visa is getting a captive auduence of employees on low salary. The benefit is in financial terms for American companies. It is not only about IT, Universities are also abusing this Academic H-1B Visa in hiring Ph.D.s or Post Docs at dirt cheap salaries. There is no cap on number of Academic H-1B visa and people coming on them have little idea about tax, in-hand salary, cost of living. There is nothing like minimum salary in University Research environment. Few years ago, a friend of mine was hired as a PostDoc in Molecular Biology department. He already had a good permanent Government job in India- he came to USA after taking leave for 3 years on a fixed contract. His in-hand salary was 1600 dollars per month. He came with his wife and daughter. His Apartment Rent was 600 Dollars, Medical Family Insurance was 500 Dollars. They-Family of 3- were expected to survive on 500 Dollars and they spent lot of their money from their Indian savings to survive. He somehow changed the contract from 3 years to 1 year and was able to get back to his original job in India.
Why did his Professor employ him, because no American Scientist or Ph.D. will work at such little salary. The main aim of H-1 Visa is to get cheap labour from Foreign countries, financially exploit them as much as possible !!!
Other people have no back-up and continue being exploited in the hope of Green card. It is not about Tata or infosys only, American Universities are abusing it in thousands every year.
there are several problems with the usual excuse to shaft American workers of, “companies maximizing their profits for shareholders”. One is that the executives at these companies, like Robert Iger at Disney when Disney was replacing it’s loyal, highly qualified American workforce with H-1B’s, vastly overpay themselves despite doing far less work than most of their employees, and often running their companies inefficiently or ineffectively. It’s just rent seeking and not adding real value, and if stockholder value is indeed so important, then why are the executives paying themselves so much? They are the ones adding to the costs of labor and decreased profitability for shareholders far more than the workers who are actually contributing to the company’s value by doing real work, the salaries of the executives are putting a far greater dent in profits than the salaries of the “little people”. So when the management of companies like Disney use the excuse of “labor costs reduce profitability” to replace American workers with cheap labor H-1B’s– all the while paying themselves tens of millions of dollars in salaries a year while often doing far less work than the grunts who do the real work– what they’re really is, “no, shareholders, we really don’t care about you and the profits of the company based on our overpaid salaries, but we’ll pretend that we do by taking out your frustration with executive labor costs on the little people without the power”. That’s corruption by any definition. If Robert Iger and the Disney VP’s really wanted to save on labor costs and increase profitability for their shareholders, they would have cut down their exorbitant salaries way down, or replaced themselves with H-1B’s. But no, that’s only for the engineers, tech workers and “little people” outside the board-room. That, by any definition, really is corruption.
The other problem with this kind of “duty to the shareholders” argument is broader and little more diffuse, it’s that it’s the infrastructure, laws, contracts and protections of the United States that make these companies existence possible, leave alone their profits. So when a tech company, or an openly disloyal company like Robert Iger’s Disney basically back-stabs American workers in the name of “being profitable”, all it’s really doing is turning it’s back on the cohesion of the country that made it’s existence possible. It’s basically free-loading off the hard work, taxes, dedication and contributions of Americans who have created the society where they can flourish, while refusing to contribute in even the most basic way, by hiring Americans or even allowing skilled Americans in good-paying jobs to keep their jobs. Not unlike Wal-Mart but on an even more egregious scale because of the skilled nature of the jobs being replaced by H-1B’s, jobs that require years of training and lots of student loans debt. In some ways there are analogies to the problems with tariffs but I don’t think they’re the same at all.
The problems with tariffs are much deeper, having to do with way the parts for products are sourced all over the world, and it’s why tariffs are a lot more problematic. The H-1B on the other hand, really doesn’t add any value to US society and instead takes a lot of value away by reducing the ability of Americans to get good paying jobs to support families and support their local economies, and keep skills within America. Supporting more open trade (by opposing excessive tariffs and a trade war) is reasonable, common-sense and good for the US and global economy. Supporting the H-1B visa on other hand, is non-sensical borderline treasonous in the way the visa has become so badly abused and misused as a source of near slave labor by body shops like Tata and Infosys. Trump would be both economically and politically smart by moving away from tariffs, which really don’t do much good for American workers or the economy, and instead more aggressively limiting and restricting the H-1B visa and its widespread abuse, which would do an enormous amount of good for the US economy and workers.
In America, boardroom salaries are ridiculous out of proportion with the salaries of the workers who do the daily work of the companies, including the tech and other skilled professionals. When investors get angry about reduced profits and returns due to labor costs, the main culprit is not the salaries of the tech professionals and other skilled and unskilled workers getting things done, it’s the excessive salaries of executives who are paid way out of proportion to the contributions to the company.
The corporate executives know this and feel a little guilty about it, but instead of doing the right thing– keeping their own salaries at a more reasonable (though still very very high level) and keeping their loyal American workers on-board, they blame their hard working (though less powerful) American workers for their own blunders at the executive and boardroom level, blaming workers who are simply making middle-class American salaries necessary for surviving and raise a family with American living costs. At Disney, the profits were already pretty good, and Bob Iger and the other execs could have raised profits more by moderating their bloated salaries while keeping on their American workforce. Instead they refused to yield a dime of their own sky high executive salaries, tried to replace their American workforce with imported workers from India they intended to treat as slave labor– and suffered a PR disaster that will forever scar and haunt Disney. It’s just corruption and greed on the part of already extremely high paid executives who can’t ever seem to get enough and want American tech workers to pay for their greed and mistakes. That’s why the H-1B visa in it’s current form has to go, it’s no friend of American or foreign workers who both get exploited and underpaid due to it, and being pitted against each other, it’s only a friend of executives like Iger with bottomless greed and corruption and no regarding for the workers that make their companies run.
Besides IT, they also have a “Foreign Student at University” industry. Many Foreign students come to USA for MS, MBA, Ph.D. in the hope of getting a job visa after completion of their courses. If H-1B visa is stopped, students will stop coming. Universities are going to have financial losses. Thats why they also lobby in favour of H-1 visas along with big corporations.
I’m glad you brought up point about universities abusing this visa, not just companies like Disney or FB. A lot of those asst professor, post doc and lab asst jobs are high skilled and used to pay a good living wage, but now the salaries are outrageous low for sometimes 4-5 years in expensive cities, making it tough to make a living. And that’s mostly as you say, because the universities dangle carrots in front of these workers from overseas desperate for a green card, forcing them to work 100 hours a week for ridiculous low pay which drags down the pay for everyone. The H-1B and other visas like this, it’s basically a war by crony capitalists and crony university administrators against living wages for both Americans and foreign workers, which is insane economic policy with costs of living so high
Regretfully, When Leo Perrero sued Disney his attorney Sara Blackwell had to sue where Disney had all of the power. The judge didn’t even address the Rico issue presented by the plaintiff’s attorney. Americans were replaced by Indians and the Americans still needed their jobs.
I have no problem with visas for top talent but these are rare in reality, things like the O visas, IIRc are used for this. But the big majority of H-1B and other visas like it are just cheap labor and as you said correctly, used to funnel even more wealth upward to the born-rich 0.1% who already have more than they could ever spend, by crushing American living wages even more while costs of living go thru the roof for housing, healthcare and college. The h-1B visa has become a dirty blunt instrument that benefits no one but the born-with a silver spoon crowd, both American workers and immigrant workers suffer heavily for it. The arrogant elites get use it as a wedge to push wages down, pitting desperate workers from India against Americans who have bills to pay, and in fact it’s esp. cruel to the Indians in the way it’s used as a dangled carrot for a green card. Like some posters were saying, the Indians often accept the horribly low wages and being forced into debt (H-1B’s in America have US costs of living after all, not Indian costs of living) because their true “income” is more the dangling carrot of a green card in the future. So all workers and strivers, the people who do the real work and have the ambition to build America, get the shaft.
This is also points the way to real solutions for the H-1B abuse, beyond a moratorium or, abolishing it, which would be a smart thing to do too with all the abuse.
1st, go back to the original law and strictly enforce that the H-1B is a temporary visa only and cannot be extended or used as “bridge” for a green card. This will prevent companies from being able to dangle the carrot of a future green card to H-1B visa holders in return for depressed wages, and thus H-1B applicants will be higher quality and demand better wages up front, reducing the ability to use H-1B as a wedge to push down wages with slave labor.
2nd, demand that employers who take on H-1B’ pay a premium, something like $50,000 above the prevailing wage in the US, not just at the prevailing wage. This will help that the H-1B really does what it was intended, like you say bring in truly talented people paid a premium, not cheap labor.
3rd, increase fines and even jail time for employers who post up fake job ads like the one in that video with the Cohen and Grigsby law firm openly talking about ways to BS the job ads to demand impossible qualifications and hot hire Americans. This is pure treason and open fraud, I saw in Europe they have harsh penalties for this and companies engaging in this BS get shut down and their execs go to jail for intentional fraud against the public. We need to do that here too, it’ll encourage companies to hire and do some training for younger Americans and retain older Americans instead of what Disney did in 2015.
4th, increase processing fees and put H-1B visa in hands of the immigrant, not the employer. This will help too make sure the immigrant is truly talented and very valuable to company, not just cheap labor. This will help, like you’re saying, make sure it’s only truly talented people brought in as was original intent, not cheap labor which hurts Ameircans and immigrants alike, and keeps out talented people by using all the visas for slave labor.
the reform i would like to happen is that only immigrants (green cards) should be able to bring their families.
if you are just H1B, just come for yourself.
and no petitioning of parents or brothers and sisters once you are citizen
Originally Posted by MongooseHugger
What happens is that those like Disney will go through one or more agencies, some big ones like Tata, and some smaller staffing agencies, that actually do the hiring and dirty work. And either there is a loophole in the law that lets these guys get away with it or else Congress is too lazy/crooked to bother chasing all of these chains down to the actual hiring agency. I’ve even heard talk of some hiring agencies using fake addresses or vacant buildings! Also, each of these agencies take their cut so if somebody is working for $75K for Disney, they, after the chain of agencies, might only see $40K of that. So then they room together a bunch per room, landlords eventually catch on and raise the rates, knowing the foreigners can pay more, and thus housing costs go up for everyone!
Oh yes I saw a lot of this in my days working STEM, the H-1B’s brought in on slave wages, bunch of them rooming together in filthy squalid conditions which becomes contagious and makes the housing mess miserable for everyone else. Costs go up, the H-1B worker’s meager earnings then don’t even allow for remittances, they become virtual slaves, the only thing keeping them here being the dangling carrot of a green card. Immigrant workers miserable, American workers miserable, only the corrupt and uber greedy execs who’ve usually already inherited a multimillion dollar trust fund make out like a bunch of bandits, everyone else including 99% of Americans lose. And yeah, Tata is a piece of work, they and Infosys were among the worst of the body shops in already corrupt industry.
This part esp rings pretty true, “Congress is too lazy/crooked to bother chasing all of these chains down to the actual hiring agency” This has been the defining problem of the US of the past 40 years which is grinding the USA down into a 3rd world country. We’ve lost what made us unique, however imperfect or flawed we were a country that cared about our workers and making the US a great and encouraging place to work in, with good salaries and social upward mobility. And it’s because Congress has allow itself to become bribed and basically bought off by the most corrupt corporations, just like in places like Mexico or Pakistan. This is how a once great country dies, either that or the betrayed citizens and voters take pitchforks and torches to the capital and burn it down in rage, which like we’re seeing in Venezuela isn’t very pretty either. Congress and the governments had best shape up and remember the American people are their bosses and they serve the needs of American citizens and workers, not corrupt governments overseas using US labor market as safety valve and certainly not corrupt plutocrats putting their own insane greed and arrogant interests over the American people, something like Venezuela can be a lot closer to happening here than they think.
Here are some comments in reply to a pro-H1B article:
Agreed that there has been abuse of different kinds of work visas, h1b being the most abused. However, what is being done to stop this abuse is not how it should be done. The recent changes have ended up creating a totally inconsistent and unreliable system adding to the woes of both employers and employees(taking about the really skilled ones). I personally know of a lot of cases wherein similar petitions got varied results. To me, it seems like US has created yet another new lottery system – if you are lucky, you get through regardless of your level of skill, barring a few exceptions. This is probably why the CEOs are complaining.
As a CEO of a company I founded I refuse to do business with any H1B dependent business. I walked away from fairly large contactsc with Microsoft, Qualcomm and a few other large US forms and made it clear that I don’t support 21st slavery
I concur with the first person to comment here.
I work for one of the major Indian IT companies for the past 10+ years, from one of their Latin American offices and moved to the US 3 years ago under L1-B visa (Intracompany Transferee Specialized Knowledge). After my BsCIS and 5 years in IT, I’ve joined this company and got specialized on several modules of a suite of third party applications – a very narrow niche – traveling around the world for 7+ years. You can’t find many people in the USA with this experience, which justified my company to relocate me here. But, I’ve met *so many* unskilled people here on H1-B, from my company and from other IT outsourcing companies. Not even to mention the lack of soft skills, professionalism and poor English communication. Not high skilled at all. Most of them are difficult to work with, slackers, only doing the needful to remain where they are, and then jump to another project or company while their GC will take a more than a decade to be processed.
Unfortunately chain recommendation is true, immediate managers protecting their own, constantly bringing known people regardless of being a good fit or not to the position.
There are good people, some great talents on H1-B too, don’t get me wrong. But unfortunately the exception became the norm and the abuse of the system is there. Unfortunately relocating immigrants in IT for these companies is cheap labor while paying in US dollars, but still a lot of money for the employees if compared with what they’re making back home.
But this is a difficult puzzle to resolve. Not having there resources available in US (paying taxes and spending their earnings here) might push companies to outsource more, and the US might lose more jobs…
This is a very biased article.
I am an IT contractor.
In 1996 I made $40/hr, no benefits or paid holidays.
In 2018 I still get quoted $40/hr for contracts.
If there were an actual labor shortage, rates would go up.
$40/hr in 1996 is $64 in 2018 when you adjust for inflation.
This is about cheap labor.
The CEOs are lying about this.
What else do CEOs lie about?
I know Indians abusing the H1B, Andra peoples especially. Some of them are pretty low skilled and not fit to be called as high skilled at all. They come to USA with chain recommendation. I’m not a supporter of Mr. Trump but ….
Here is a post from an anti-H1B visa group:
Another company Erickson, outsource all IT operations to Ireland . All employees got 2 weeks notice.
And a post from another anti-H1B visa group about Amazon:
Even the highly paid IT workers are miserable. I’ve had white American males who work at AWS call me on interviews and they sound super stressed and amped up on methamphetamines by the way they talk in stressed and forced robotic speech. My two interviews for cloud database jobs at Amazon were disasters even when I knew the hiring manager who was a friend from a past gig.
I found this comment in a Mercury News article about the Cisco H-1B visa abuses:
I worked at Honda’s North American headquarters in Torrance, California, and they (along with their facility in Ohio) brought in almost nothing but H-1B workers for their IT positions. H-1B visas are supposed to be for specialized talent, but most of the people that I worked with were right out of college. Some had a “boot camp” before coming here, but there were absolutely no special skills. They were just cheaper than US citizens.
And some more comments from this article:
HP, IBM,Oracle, Dell, etc..a;ll do this. IBM may be a far worse abuser of H1 visas than anyone else. Google and Apple most likely do this as well and may not be to the extent that the others do
And another post from an anti-H1B Visa group:
My wife can’t find employment in IT field that can allow us to cover for daycare and cost of living with basic CISCO certifications and undergrad degree. She is having to get masters in telecom engineering to be able to compete with foreign graduates who also have masters to get a starting salary that will cover breaking even expenses for her working in a high cost of living state. Daycare is very expensive and what Cisco certification entry jobs would pay we would end up spending on taxes and daycare at this point so it isn’t worth her working. E.g if someone makes $250k and their partner will make $50k the additional revenue is taxed highly in a state like California and what is left daycare will take so it isn’t worth even making the additional $50k
And another post:
You know American STEM graduates are without jobs in Hi-Tech so how can this be a bad news? Tell us.
My wife is straight A grades MBA from a great UT campus and was forced to work as a school teacher while 3.2, 3.6 gpa foreigners were given jobs at Nortel, Ericsson, DELL, EDS, AT&T etc you name it. Some of them were even entertained at sensitive firms like Raytheon, state’s IT departments.
Accordingly I have little to no sympathy for foreign manpower and universities&firms that bend over backwards to serve as their pimps.
Here are some posts from an anti-H1B visa group about the experiences of various members in IT:
I am with implementation and upgrade of Oracle EBS as a contractor. I have done full blown implementation and upgrade single handed at Fortune 50.
Many employers call including like of Deloitte, KPMG, IBM, Accenture etc for a permanent gig but breaks down on salary negotiations and primarily due to work hours schedule – guess I am not a 24/7 type so I stick to my 1099 stuff, that way hiring manager keep it simple at 40/wk. Damn IT Offshoring and Outsourcing.
Now and then I get feelers for Defense crap, I even got a feeler to work at White House.
I can move on to more simpler environs but for the fact that I do not want to leave the field wide open for alien raiders to barge in and ravage.
Still able to hold on , Software engineer last 20 years. Worried about America after seeing so many of my coworkers and myself went through at the hands of NAZI CEOs of corporate America. America is under invasion. Intentional invasion designed by corporate America
Been in it for 38 years, 32 in the USA. Came here after marrying a us woman. Started doing rpg , followed by cobol and dec c. Today I’m a tech lead at the largest airline in the world doing sqlserver and c#. My group is not big on h1b, although the same can not be said about the company. Keeping up with the latest tech is the secret to survive. I’m big on blockchain and have participated in a crypto coin project.
Retired waiting for IT to become a respected profession again.
Yeah I know some people are fine, but
IMO the gig economy has ruined the reality and perception of IT being business partners. I went into Technical Business & Data Analysis, but found that its treated by the business insiders as a utility. Like when you hire a guy to fix the lights or phones.
I found some places ( Enterprise architecture ) valued experience maturity and judgment.
Much of the consulting I’ve done is for people who are business insiders and often made mistakes from the get go, and you either had to just follow orders or find a way to explain the ~mistake~, or better yet, suggest a better ( bail out ) option.
++In house IT tends to be hardware & software and not enough about strategy integrating and accumulating in-house experience and judgment.
My worst experience with an IT manager with no IT chops-
” I don’t know much about IT, but I make up for it with my social skills. “
The crash came at the worst time for me to capitalize on my decades of experience in my business domain.
I have been in IT infrastructure, security, and project management since the early 90s. After 12 years working for fortune 10 companies I took a job in local municipal government IT, running IT departments. Made the change because offshoring and sponsored labor made continuous private sector employment risky. It’s been 15 years since I worked in private sector. My salary hit was 50 percent. Love what I do just sucks how I make less adjusted for inflation then my dad did
“Love what I do” – True! That’s the hardest part of what many gave up. Most folks simply can’t comprehend that.
In one of the anti-H1B visa groups, I listed what companies I had found by my research to be abusers and asked if they knew of any others. Somebody mentioned American Express. So I did a quick DuckDuckGo search and found this at thelayoff.com:
American Express went downhill fast when their motto was fire American workers and force them to train their #H1B replacements or Indian outsourced workers in order to get severance.
Year after year until their quality was below Capital One. No matter how many JDPOWER awards they buy. You put lipstick on a turd it still a turd.
And another post from this group:
Thomson Reuters are HUGE users of H-1B visas. They probably have their H-1B visa recipients fully trained. So it is time to shutter up the US operations and move the H-1B people back to India.
And a reply to this post:
A year ago I refused interview at Thomson Reuters for Sabrix/Oracle EBS integration projects because there were too many aliens working on H-1B/L-1 at their 2395 Midway Rd, Carrollton, TX 75006 office. I remember that I had conveyed my reasoning for refusal to HR Director at their Oregon office.
Back then I was wishing something like this would happen to bring Thomson Reuters to it’s senses.
Today, I added an item to my TODO list to remind me to send Christmas greetings to the HR-Director at Thomson Reuters, Oregon office with this facebook post link to serve her a reminder.
And another post from this group:
VZ has entire office buildings completely full of H1B workers in Irving Texas. If the DHS, DOJ or the USCIS were to visit these buildings and have a look, I’m sure even an untrained agent would be able to recognize immediately that there is a major problem!
And yet another post from this group:
Does anyone have any information on the IT market in Chicago? I have almost 30 years of IT experience and I have not been able to find a job (other than a one-month contact position) since this February. Looking for some information and guidance. Thank you all for your time.
Here is a post from an anti-H1B visa group:
You know the globalization of IT really threw many of us into another completely different class. I was worth much more than many in 2010; a firm six figure. Then everything changed. It was precipitous and unmistakable. Job, gone. Professional reputation, gone. Friends and family wondered why I didn’t have a job anymore. I would explain to them, but they wouldn’t even listen. To this day, now employed again, my social status is closer to a janitor than a professional with two degrees. Friends and family keep telling me to just get over it. This week I began setting up new database users in Mumbai to one of my databases. The onslaught continues. I’m a janitor.
And some replies to this post:
I agree with you that IT is quickly becoming factory work. I talked to some idiot in a government HR department about her bad hiring practices and she told me my masters in computer science from MIT was absolutely worthless. Apparently HR people read magazines (the equivalent of FoxNews) and base their decisions on that instead of reality. I think it all comes down to you’re as valuable as what’s in your head – what you know. I have found many of my oldest friends are going into business for themselves in direct competition with those firms that think that IT is something to be farmed out and closing THEM down.
I wish we had a workable strategy to compete w H1’s or the places that employ them…. But it takes money. These companies have us between a rock and hard place and they own the govt.
All education, PhD, skilled, unskilled, is becoming the same thing. LABOR- The only winners are middlemen and owners.
I was treated far better at the beginning of my career then at mid career now..
Have to disagree that the downfall was precipitous, maybe for you and others in this group you were surprised that you could be replaced with cheaper foreigners and then end up being forced out of your specialized field into low paying jobs. Many techies were affected by this starting in the mid 90’s and would actually go to their local, state and federal elected politicians to complain because there was no social media in those days to make statements. For years those that were unemployed and denied employment would be warning those that still had their jobs and careers to support their former colleagues and not much was done. When you have a job and a career you do not understand or don’t want to assist those that need jobs. Now the Indians have full control of IT and they are not going to hire any non Indians so as suggested in a previous comment you have to compete with larger companies with full Indian staff and make your own companies.
There are still skill sets out there that can’t generally be found among the cheaper set. Those include AIX, DB2 and of course anything that runs on the big box. My present opportunity didn’t even require an interview. They called me, asked if I was available and told me to report. Nine hundred dollar flight? No problem, expense it. The one before that was the same way. Several of these were First Class because it’s all I could get. My boss bitched up a storm until I showed him the email requesting I get there any way I could. He hasn’t complained since.
If you have what they need and there is no cheap replacement for you, you’ll get the work. My wife complains that more and more of the people she sees in the building are Indians but that’s on the database and apps side where it’s been that way for a very long time. There are still dumpy white guys out there doing things no one else does.
IBM’s buying Red Hat will definitely change things in my world. The hottest ticket going right now is Linux on mainframe which is said to be solid as granite. A forty year IBMer recently told me AIX was threatened to be sold about two years ago until the users all complained and then it was decided to invest more into AIX and POWER. I should be okay for another eight to ten years and that’s all I need.
I suffered almost 2 years of UNEMPLOYMENT after a high paying 6 figure income.
my unemployment stint lasted three years
Here is a post from another anti-H1B visa group:
Non-profits like colleges and universities are entitled to UNLIMITED H-1B visas. Universities like Wright State University bring in inexpensive, disposable, and submissive workers into the US on cheap labor work visas and then Wright State University hires them out to for-profit employers.
Here is a post from another anti-H1B visa group:
Today is definitely a very sad day for all American tech workers. We are getting discriminated and displaced by Indian IT bodyshops with Indians on H1-B / H4 visas in our own country, yet we don’t get justice from our own judiciary system.
And another post from this group:
Another day, another H1B abuser. Are you awake, USCIS?
Here is are posts from a Breitbart anti-outsourcing article:
I worked in the engineering field all of my life, I know what I am talking about. I saw 5 Vietnamese living in the same run down house, splitting the cost of utilities. All had engineering degrees, and would underbid Americans to get work. It happens time after time, all over the USA. Foreign workers form communes, and undercut wages. They are willing to live a life style of a yard worker, to get the engineering jobs in America. They share cars, houses, and even beds, to survive on low wages that employers are glad to pay, to keep expenses low.
So many of us are burdened with student loans, chasing advanced degrees, but we don’t get the jobs. I think France’s Yellow Vests have the right idea.
This is why I’m an independent. The Democrats are horrible but the Republicans aren’t better by much. Especially when it comes to safeguarding the economic security of their constituents.
I am a lawyer. And I believe that the law is broken all the time. It takes an expensive lawsuit to enforce the law. Most people don’t have the money to do so. Moreover, it is very difficult to collect enough evidence to prove in court discrimination against potential American employees.
It is perfectly legal to bypass the US workforce in favor of foreign workers.
That is absolutely not true!!!
See page 36 of the US Dept of Labor document:
“H-1B non dependent employers are not subject to the conditions, and their H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker. Additionally, the importation of the foreign worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of U.S. workers.
What I saw at my former employer was the following: my employer would fire Americans who were working at the VP level. Those VP positions were eliminated. Then the company reclassified those jobs to a lower level, such as Director, Senior Associate, and/or associate, naturally, at a lower salary. Then those positions would be filled by residents from India on the Visa program. That is how lower salaries and wages are achieved.
I experienced this first hand. I was well on my way to completing a Masters degree in computer science. I couldn’t get a fair shake at any job. The specifics listed for the job were ridiculous, I would meet 8 or 9 out of 10 of the requirements and they would simply tell me I wasn’t qualified. Cost me a lot of time and money. I left the field without even getting started, still got a STEM degree in addition to other degrees. I am personally píssed that our politicians sell us out. I should have turned Black Hat on their âsses.
Here is a post from the US Tech Workers page:
DHS Published New Rules and David North of CIS Does Not Like What He Sees!
I Top Quote the great David North:
“The Department of Homeland Security’s proposed new rules on the H-1B program are deeply disappointing as they:
▶ Do nothing for U.S. workers displaced by this needlessly large program;
▶ Lavish millions of dollars in savings on the employers of H-1Bs;
▶ Seem to invite huge additional numbers of applications, which will just give industry new arguments for higher ceilings;
▶ Create a new way of doing business that seems to be an invitation to gaming the system; but
▶ Do add a long overdue and deft adjustment to the current system, a good, medium-sized move that is initially hard to understand and is explained badly by DHS.
The announcement of the proposed rulemaking came Friday afternoon, November 30, and was accompanied by a 41-page document in the December 3 Federal Register.
The announcement proclaimed it was: “introducing a more meritorious selection of beneficiaries.”
This turns out to be a puzzling process that, by definition, will do no good to any American worker, and the “meritorious selection” process (which only relates to the selection among aliens) is, in effect, a slightly different and better way of loading the dice used in two government-run lotteries, a subject to which we will return.”
WE LIVE IN A COUNTY THAT DESTROYS IS OWN CITIZENS AND AWARDS FOREIGN CHEAP LABOR – MAKE AMERICA SUCK AGAIN AS USUAL AGAIN.
Here is a post from an anti-H1B visa group:
Starbucks Coffee Company has filed 372 labor condition applications for H1B visa and 108 labor certifications for green card from fiscal year 2016 to 2018.